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Article Written on: Monday-December-22-2008 BuzzBoards Calendar Contact Advertise About
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The Bible And Gay Marriage: Reply To Lisa Miller


Written by: Dr. Albert Samuels


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The passage of California’s Proposition 8 which outlaws same-sex marriage continues to stir up controversy all over the nation. The ballot measure passed six months after the state’s highest court ruled that state laws banning same sex couples to marry violated the state’s constitution (in effect, the voters amended the constitution to outlaw gay marriage.) Gay rights activists and their supporters throughout the country have cried foul and have strongly criticized the state of California for denying - as they see it - a basic civil right to gay and lesbian Americans. Newsweek waded into the controversy last week with a provocative cover story, taking the side of the gay and lesbian movement. Its religion editor, Lisa Miller, argues that religious conservatives are simply wrong when they maintain that the Bible unequivocally condemns gay marriage. Rather, she asserts that there is plenty of Scriptural evidence that suggests that gay marriage should be encouraged and not demonized. Fundamentalist Christians, she concludes, base their opposition to gay marriage not on an accurate reading of Scripture, but on an irrational prejudice against homosexuals. For reasons that I will set forth, Ms. Miller’s argument is utterly preposterous.

            In the interests of fairness, I would like to summarize the case she makes (the entire article, of course, can be found at www.newsweek.com.) Miller  asserts that  Old Testament and New Testament examples of the so-called “traditional family” are scarce to be found. Polygamy, she points out.was practiced by Abraham and the Patriarchs - not exactly a model that most modern Americans would find attractive. Jesus is single and so is Paul - in fact, Paul goes to great lengths to defend the virtues of celibacy. His admonition that it is “better to marry than to burn” with passion is hardly a ringing endorsement of the institution of marriage, she concludes.  Relying on these examples, Miller concludes that the Biblical examples of marriage  prove that the Bible is not relevant to the manner in which the institution of marriage has evolved in the modern world.  Therefore, arguments which cite Scriptural authority as the basis for opposing gay marriage should not be taken seriously.

            Miller does admit that the Bible does condemn homosexuality in a number of places. However, she artfully explains them away with two arguments. First, the OT reference to homosexuality as an “abomination” (Lev. 19:18), she contends, is located within a Levitical code filled with various regulations regarding dietary practices, treatments for leprosy,  ceremonial cleansing, laws regarding slavery and punishments for crimes and so forth.. Many of these practices described here are no longer practiced today in America (such as slavery and the death penalty for crimes like adultery). Since we modern people have rejected “antiquated” Biblical notions such as slavery, she reasons, why should anyone take seriously a claim that homosexuality in general - and gay marriage in particular - should be condemned simply because the Bible says so?  Second, the  Pauline passages (esp. Rom. 1:26-27) refer only to extreme level of perversion and depravity (of the caliber practiced by wicked Roman emperors such as Nero and Caligula). Paul, Miller assures us, is not speaking against gay couples who are in long-term, loving, and committed relationships; rather, he is condemning wreckless promiscuity.  The gospel, she contends, is a message of love and acceptance, not condemnation. Jesus accepted those who were considered the outcasts of society in  his day. If he were walking the Earth  today, she implies, he would be welcoming gays and lesbians into the fold, not condemning them as sinners. The reason  fundamentalists refuse to accept gays and lesbians as equals, according to Miller, stems from their insistence on a “literal interpretation” of Scripture and an irrational prejudice against homosexuality that transcends all theological argument.

            Time and space will not allow me to respond to all of the errors in Lisa Miller’s article - they are too numerous.  Rather, I want to highlight what I see as the essential premises that her article is based on and why they are fundamentally flawed.

            1.Ms. Miller’s thesis is based on a fundamentally flawed view about both the origin and authority of Scripture. An essential staple in contemporary discourse from so-called “progressive” theologians is to attack the authority of Scripture. Miller pretends that the only choice we have is to either believe that the Bible descended from the heavens in completed form or it was written by men over long periods of time. And since the first option is “ridiculous” in her view, we are left with the second as the only logical alternative. Since the Bible came from men, it unavoidably takes on all the prejudices, biases, and backward thinking that typified the culture in which it was written. Her conclusions fail to take seriously the claims that the Bible makes about itself. “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” [ (2 Pet. 1:20-21). Today’s New International Version]. Miller’s reasoning presents her readers with a false choice: either believe the Bible dropped out of heaven like a meteorite, or it is a set of cleverly crafted fables conceived of by men. God used  men over a period of hundreds of years to record the Scriptures for us.

            2. Closely linked to the first assumption is a simplistic view about Biblical interpretation.

Again, Miller presents readers with a false choice - on one hand, people must either adopt a “literal” interpretation of the Bible or an approach that seeks to glean “universal truths” from Scripture while dismissing some of the Bible’s messy details that do not comport well with modern society. Fundamentalists, she asserts, are guilty of a literal reading of Scripture that prohibits them from embracing evolving cultural mores about homosexuality and the institution of marriage. She turns literalism into a straw man in order to bolster her own argument. Yet, her analysis is premised, once again, on creating a false dichotomy between literalism and so-called “progressivism.” Truly sophisticated interpretation relies not only on a single school of thought (“literalism” vs. “progressivism”), but rather utilizes a variety of approaches (e.g. literalism, understanding the historical context in which a text was written, considering the audience to whom it was written, the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew texts, etc.). Yet all of these methods of Biblical exegesis are of limited value if they are not premised on the individual submitting one’s heart and mind to the leading of the Holy Spirit. “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are only discerned through the Spirit” (1 Cor. 2:14).

            Furthermore, while the Bible clearly reflects the culture in which it was written, it emphatically makes claims about its central truths that apply throughout eternity (Acts 4:12: Heb. 10:10: Heb. 13:8). Miller paints the Bible as a flawed document written in a hopelessly  backwards culture that  is loaded with anachronistic, unscientific, and premodern ideas and institutions. Thus, it is the task of “modern, progressive” people to rescue the Bible from its inauspicious  moorings to derive some useful principles from it  that we can apply to our lives  in the present. Yet, those who hold this view of Scripture fail to provide a coherent rationale that is consistently applied for why some parts of the Bible are acceptable while other parts must be discarded.  Like her contemporaries, Miller provides no such rationale either.  As a result, her arguments amounts to a “buffet style” approach to the Bible which picks and chooses which menu items she will accept as “true” and “from God” while discarding every teaching she either dislikes or finds to be inconvenient.

            3. Building from the flawed premises cited above, Miller makes a third error - assuming that simply because a practice or institution is mentioned in the Bible, it must be condoned by the Bible. For example, the fact that polygamy and slavery are found in the Old Testament does not mean that these are divinely approved institutions. Rather, they reflect the cultural and social practices that existed when the Bible was written. To the extent that these institutions possessed many undesirable characteristics, they illustrate the bitter fruits of the fall of Man described in Genesis 3. In other words, these various forms of oppression are the logical consequences of sin.  God intentionally created the institution of marriage in Genesis 2 between a man and a woman -  therefore, the examples which appear later in Scripture of polygamy and men with numerous concubines must be viewed as deviations from God’s original design, as Jesus reminded the Pharisees (Mat. 19:1-8).

            The three premises discussed above allow Ms. Miller to explain away Biblical verses that clearly contradict her worldview and to dismiss religious objections to homosexuality as simply anachronistic ideas  rooted in tradition and prejudice rather than sound doctrine. Her view also requires her to take Biblical verses out of context in many instances to argue for the opposite of what Scripture teaches. In some cases, it causes her to draw some rather absurd conclusions - such as her assertion that Paul is only condemning a peculiar form of depravity practiced by Roman emperors such as Nero and Caligula in Romans 1:26-27 (as opposed to mature, committed gay love more generally). But this verse is contained within a discourse that begins by declaring that the wrath of God is revealed against “all of the godlessness and wickedness of human beings who suppress the truth by their wickedness“. (Rom 1:18).  In fact, the underlying argument from Rom 1:18 -3:23 is that all of us - regardless of whether we are Jew or Gentile - are guilty of sin and have fallen short of the glory of God. To restrict the application of Rom. 1:26-27’ to a form of depravity that applied only to the Roman emperors of the day violates the context of the passage. Moreover, it would have made no sense to Paul’s readers who. before their conversion to Christianity, had engaged in the same conduct that Paul identifies as sinful.

            4. Miller’s article presents a distorted view of the Gospel. Like many so-called “progressives,” she presents the Gospel as a message of love and acceptance - which it is. They analogize the gay and lesbian communities to the outcast groups who existed in Jesus’ time and assert that Jesus would embrace gays like he embraced women, lepers, tax collectors, and prostitutes. While the Gospel is indeed a message of unconditional acceptance, it is also a call to holiness. While Jesus offered acceptance to the Samaritan woman in John 4, he did not tell her, for example, that it was okay that she had had five husbands and was currently living with a man she was not married to. Nor did he tell Zacchaeus the tax collector that he could keep overcharging Jewish taxpayers even while calling himself a disciple of Jesus (Luke 19:1-10).Finally, when the Pharisees wanted to stone a woman they caught in the very act of adultery, he did not say that what she did in her bedroom was her business and nobody had the right to judge her Rather, he commanded her, “Go, now, and leave your life of sin” (Jn. 8;11). Miller would have us believe in a God who accepts us no matter what and allows us to define for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. That is not the God who is revealed in the Scriptures.

            Gay rights proponents make a fair point when they point out that conservative Christians place undue emphasis on  homosexuality - to the exclusion of other sins. On this score, many churches must plead guilty. The Bible condemns a whole host of behaviors - greed, idolatry, covetousness, heterosexual immorality, gossip, lying, fits of rage - but churches often place too much emphasis on a handful of behaviors such as homosexuality. This argument forms a crucial part of a larger critique of the narrowness of the political agenda of the Religious Right which tends to focus on a handful of issues (e.g. homosexual rights, abortion, creation vs. evolution) to the exclusion of others (e.g. war, poverty, racism, environmental degradation ). Not surprisingly, the views of conservative Christians on issues such as gay marriage are dismissed as simply right-wing political apologetics. But the aversion of progressives to political conservatism leads them to another logical fallacy - the conviction that because “they [meaning conservatives] are wrong, we must be right.” The church is wrong when it places undue emphasis on some sins and either willfully (or unconsciously) ignores others. But this failing only proves that the church is an imperfect institution filled with imperfect people. The church’s shortcomings do not validate the political ideology and/or theology of those who willfully twist the Scriptures to teach the opposite of what the Bible plainly says.

            This article hardly exhausts all of the various dimensions of this issue, nor is it intended to.  Proving that the Bible condemns homosexuality does not, in and of itself, resolve all of the thorny legal and constitutional questions regarding the rights of gays and lesbians. Furthermore, despite the denials of some on the Religious Right, our constitutional system is intentionally a secular one; therefore, this fact leaves open the question of how the rights of gay and lesbian Americans are defined within a religiously pluralistic society. My principal objection here is to the outrageous assumption that the Bible supports gay marriage. It does not. Perhaps the Constitution does. The proponents of gay marriage would be better served by grounding their arguments in a theory of the Constitution rather than trying to make the Bible say something that it never meant to say.

POSTSCRIPT: I want to applaud President-elect Barack Obama for choosing Pastor Rick Warren to give the invocation at the inauguration. I also encourage the president-elect to resist the criticism of gay and lesbian activists who have roundly criticized him for choosing someone who is “anti-gay” and was an outspoken proponent of Proposition 8.  What the gay and lesbian movement and their supporters refuse to admit is that they are just as close-minded as those hated fundamentalists they love to lampoon. They preach a doctrine of “tolerance” and “political correctness,” yet they tolerate only those who agree with them and try to silence their critics. They are just as hypocritical as the Religious Right whom they constantly vilify.

            Moreover, it is foolish of them to pick a fight with Obama over this when there are far more important issues to tackle. There are many Americans like Obama who agree that gays and lesbians should be entitled to certain basic civil rights and liberties like other Americans. But many of them support civil unions, not marriage, largely for religious reasons. As I have argued here, these are not inconsequential objections. The gay community would be wise to recognize this; otherwise, they run the risk of alienating people who otherwise might be their allies. Just offering friendly advice.

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Comments from BayouBuzz readers

While I applaud the effort you put into your very detailed answer, I wouldn't say it makes you any more right then the woman you are responding to. I happen to be one of those Americans like Obama who agree that gays and lesbians should be entitled to certain basic civil rights and liberties like other Americans. But to call the gay community "foolish and hypocritical" is a bit foolish and hypocritical on your part. And certainly intolerant at best. Not being gay, you and I will never know the exact depth of that struggle. The straight community would be wise to recognize that this isn't the first group of law abiding, freedom hungry citizens who we told they run the risk of alienating people who otherwise might be their allies. I think you and I can relate first hand to that. One hypocrite to another. Just offering friendly advice as well. Al
Written by Al on 1/12/2009
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WORTH REPOSTING; Because when you say expensive, expensive in relationship to what? Wedding cakes, photographers, honeymoons, bridal showers, etc., etc., etc. Huhhhhh????? What rights are you talking about that can't be obtained through incoporation, power of attorney, executor of an estate, etc., etc., etc.....?????? Glad I'm not confused...
Written by   on 1/5/2009
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Thanks, Tee Dub. I believe you're right. No sense in trying to "reason" w/someone who has no sense.
Written by Mike M. on 1/4/2009
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Ho-ho-ho T-blub.... It is you that is being ignored.... moron...
Written by   on 1/3/2009
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Mike, it generally works better to ignore him. Even this little message will probably generate an 800-word (salad) response. TW
Written by Tee Dub on 1/3/2009
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WORTH REPEATING: Goodness, "no name"!! After reading your blog/"word salad", my evaluation of you is 100% accurate--and you proved it. The only thing I left out is that you are IN CRISIS, period--not just having an identity crisis. You obviously didn't comprehend a word of my blog. You made so many ludicrous & false assumptions about gay/homosexuals, & the "welcoming" by gay couples of children who have been abandoned, abused, & tossed aside by "heterosexual" couples. Btw, homosexuals didn't bring these children into the world; however, we often help to clean up the mess in which "some" heterosexual couples leave these poor children. We help these children, to help them--not to accessorize,understand?? Interesting all of the assumptions you make about gay couples wanting children. Most of those assumptions/motives could & are sometimes the driving force for heterosexual couples that want, or have children...Talk about a reality switch. You're in so much denial, & self-delusion that you don't see that all of the motives/assumptions you assign to gay marriage, & gay couples adopting children, are the same assignations often assigned to heterosexual marriages, & they're desire to have children. HELLO!! Interesting also, is your slippery delineation of homosexual, & gay. What you're telling us is that you are a "heterosexual"(wink, wink!)male, who likes to have sex w/other men--you just don't want to be labeled as being "gay", or "homosexual". Can you say IDENTITY CRISIS????!!! Or, is it just more of the same--no integrity, & no interpersonal honesty?? I hope you get SERIOUS help--the kind that is bigger than your denial/lack of integrity, & interpersonal dishonesty. Godspeed!
Written by Mike M. on 1/2/2009
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Poor-poor-poor Mikey M. Still babbling on about blah-blah-blah…… Do the world and the press a favor and adopt poor-poor-poor Mycal Bell… Poor wittle ophan is soooooo confused he not only doesn’t know how to speel his foist name, but he doesn’t have the common sense to incorporate a decent head shot either and totally missed the heart of the subject, just like you…….. Your pitiful justifications and ramblings to justify your ‘proxy’ position sort of reminds me of Rooster [cock] fighting in Louisiana….. A lot of those folks want to have their cock and make others eat it too I suppose…….. You see poor-poor-poor Mike, I pass no judgments, and I make no assumptions…. I am merely saying that I am not going to support another sad-sad-sad situation that will sooner or later be produced just because someone feels that their opinion holds water and therefore is correct in demanding my support…… So do not use children as the weapon of choice to achieve some kind of fruitless goal or agenda….. It is on that very issue that you lose all validity to some sort of claim, if there ever was one to make in the first place….. So grab your red shoes and go dancing……
Written by   on 1/2/2009
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Dear Kjungal.... let me type this v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, so you do not miss my point. Let us assume that global warming is fact, irrefutable fact ("etched in stone" & God {played by Karl Marx} appears above a cloud and announces that it is so - irrefutable indeed!!!). That does not mean that "carbon credits" is anything other than a scam that will make some people rich while not helping the global warming situation (in fact, perhaps even delaying effective measures to solve this problem). Again (for the third time no less) there are "green" groups - those who believe in global warming - who also hold the opinion that carbon credits are a scam. Al Gore has positioned himself to profit from carbon credits; Al Gore is not a scientist; there are many scientists who dispute global warming AND/OR the proposed "solutions" to this problem. ALSO - it makes no sense to me - NONE WHATSOEVER - for the United States to unilaterally take action to "reduce our carbon footprint" while China and India build - each of these two countries mind you - over 300 coal-fired power plants since Kyoto was proposed (!? - uh, WTF!!! That's BS, pardon my language, Cher). And finally, if you really want to reduce our CO emissions, we need to go with nuclear power - not wind power, not solar power, nuclear power. Power that is BOTH clean and relatively cheap. I think you will find that Obama is more pragmatic than idealistic; I do not think he will destroy the economy with anti-capitalist far left green "solutions" that hurt our economy. If he tries, then I can assure you it will be apparent to all that the "debate" over global warming - A-N-D I-T-'-S S-O-L-U-T-I-O-N-S - is very much alive.
Written by kpf on 1/1/2009
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Goodness, "no name"!! After reading your blog/"word salad", my evaluation of you is 100% accurate--and you proved it. The only thing I left out is that you are IN CRISIS, period--not just having an identity crisis. You obviously didn't comprehend a word of my blog. You made so many ludicrous & false assumptions about gay/homosexuals, & the "welcoming" by gay couples of children who have been abandoned, abused, & tossed aside by "heterosexual" couples. Btw, homosexuals didn't bring these children into the world; however, we often help to clean up the mess in which "some" heterosexual couples leave these poor children. We help these children, to help them--not to accessorize,understand?? Interesting all of the assumptions you make about gay couples wanting children. Most of those assumptions/motives could & are sometimes the driving force for heterosexual couples that want, or have children...Talk about a reality switch. You're in so much denial, & self-delusion that you don't see that all of the motives/assumptions you assign to gay marriage, & gay couples adopting children, are the same assignations often assigned to heterosexual marriages, & they're desire to have children. HELLO!! Interesting also, is your slippery delineation of homosexual, & gay. What you're telling us is that you are a "heterosexual"(wink, wink!)male, who likes to have sex w/other men--you just don't want to be labeled as being "gay", or "homosexual". Can you say IDENTITY CRISIS????!!! Or, is it just more of the same--no integrity, & no interpersonal honesty?? I hope you get SERIOUS help--the kind that is bigger than your denial/lack of integrity, & interpersonal dishonesty. Godspeed!
Written by Mike M. on 12/30/2008
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"The Inconvenient Truth".. whoops.... "AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH".. (sowwy)
Written by KjunKringle on 12/30/2008
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Okay, KP..... I'll read your recs- after you read "The Assault on Reason" and "The Inconvenient Truth.".... better yet- rent the movie.. might be more your style. You bullishly pretend that global warming is a hoax- (I know you're too intelligent to really believe this).... What does it matter? not your problemn, eh?-- your grandchildren's problem? And the "rain forests"- is that all contrived too?.. Oh, Kp-- let's just laugh over this one... because it's no fun knocking heads with you.
Written by KjunKringle on 12/30/2008
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“……….horrors created by your own state issued/state sanctioned marriages.”?..... Horrors, or whores, gay, or homosexual, lesbianism or masochism….. Those a merely words, and Gawd knows there are many other terms and they are often times used or omitted in order to dilute or sidestep some underlying, yet no less true issue or issues at hand….. Being ‘homosexual’ does not mean a person ‘gay’, and subsequently, being ‘gay’ doesn’t mean a person is a homosexual…. I think you have some serious self evaluation to conduct before you attempt to evaluate others…… Especially me…… You appear to be suffering some type of a personal or some type of identity crisis….. And being as I do not know what the actual state of mind a person is truly laboring under, if such a type of identification {Being Gay} is proclaimed and stood upon as the basis for being allowed to ‘marry’ in order to ‘adopt’ I can find no compelling reason that would provoke me to want to be involved in causing, or sanctioning the effects that could force a child to decipher that out on its own over a drawn out period of time as a result of a legal instrument commonly known as ‘adoption’…. If a ‘gay’ couple is childless, why do they need to adopt a child? To make their ‘union’ more ‘sound’? To make it appear more ‘normal’? Perhaps they want children to soften some kind of sadness? Or lack? Or a feeling of disenfranchisement? Or is it to have some kind of sense of completion, or a feeling of completeness? And an adopted child is going to make all those things go away? I wouldn’t think so…… So what is this ‘union’ under the auspices of being granted under the condition of ‘gayness’ really constituted of? Perhaps the children are merely a prop for the spectacle intended to bewilder and confound the masses that surround them much like the current antics which can be commonly encountered on Fremont Street in San Francisco, or the antics commonly seen on Bourbon Street….. Ahhh,, that public shock and awe syndrome…… But what if the shock and awe is simply a little more removed from public sight? Who is to really know? If it is common knowledge that many times “Men of the cloth” or “Men of God” which are more commonly referred to as priests have sexually abused children, of what higher moral standing does a commonly encountered person on the streets that proclaims ‘Gaydom’ to be entrusted? What is the bench mark? The totem pole {pun intended}? Now if a person is truly ‘Gay’, then that person would probably make a great parent…. But there is only one little letter that separates a Gay person from a Gray person, and it is that Grey area that I choose not to explore, or try to understand, or cause anyone else, least of all a child, to endure….. Children are not merely some little ‘Kewpie doll’ or Bobble-head that someone can go down to the local store and obtain in order to prop up their egos, or accessorize their house with much in the same fashion a poodle or a house fern is used for ….. And in the instance that the issue of adoption AND children were used as the rationalization for the reasoning, or the reason for the rationalization {Again, put one word in front of the other and what do you got? Bibbidee babbadee voo} to grant ‘gay’ marriages, that tact is despicable at best… DO NOT DRAG CHILDREN INTO OR USE CHILDREN AS A TOOL OR A BARGANING CHIP TO ACHIEVE YOUR MOTIVES WHATEVER IT IS THEY ARE….. My best advice for Gay people is to queue in on David Bowie, put on the red shoes, and dance the blues……
Written by   on 12/30/2008
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"no name"--I wouldn't release my name on your blogs, either...Your pedantic comments on every topic in which you participate reveal your immense, & maniacal denial. The very description you use to malign “state issued/state sanctioned gay marriage as being something like masturbation, & incapable of producing anything else of lasting value to any society at large as a result of its frenzied pursuit”, is not only inaccurate, but could just as easily be said of most state issued & sanctioned heterosexual marriages. Furthermore, gay couples would welcome, & give unconditional love to the MILLIONS of abandoned, abused, & simply tossed aside babies, & children of many of those state issued/state sanctioned heterosexual marriages. How’s that for your state of blindness, & childlessness??!! If you had any integrity, or interpersonal honesty no one would have to point out to you that these cold-harsh realities already existed—completely independent of homosexuality, or gay marriage. Once again, you’re just trying to place, misplaced blame, onto homosexuals rather than take responsibility for the horrors created by your own state issued/state sanctioned marriages. Please think through your words BEFORE printing them, as YOUR words speak about you, NOT what you speak about.
Written by Mike M. on 12/29/2008
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The Kyoto ACCORD...... No, Bush did not sign that... Thank Gawd he had the insight not to do so... Things could have turned out badly, sort of like folks around the world getting angry at Israel after kicking some HamASS after Hamas has been lobbing explosives at the people of Israel for the last 6 or 7 years.... And Israel stood by and endured it not wanting to raise tensions even farther.... Could you imagine the Chinese 'Carbon Police' comming over here and shutting down what is left of our manufacturing capablities in order to preserve their economic output with some kind of a writ like a Kyoto Accord serving as the treaty and the right and justification to be able to do so? It is now time more than ever to do as Israel is doing and stand up for ourselves.... And hopefully at zero cost to the innocent..... Which I am sure that Israel is not happy with but how much are people supposed to take before hitting back?
Written by   on 12/29/2008
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I would suppose that state issued/state sanctioned gay marriage license would be something like masturbation…. Although it may feel good at times, it is incapable of producing anything else of lasting value to any society at large as a result of its frenzied pursuit… if pursued too vigorously it could even eventually lead to a state of blindness or childlessness.
Written by   on 12/29/2008
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In addition to scams, there is foolishness such as the Kyoto Treaty, where the U.S. is supposed to reduce CO emmissions while China and India build hundreds of new coalfired electric plants. Oh..... lemme see.... oriental CO emmissions = good; North American CO emmissions = bad. I guess that what Al Gore meant when he said "science will not get in the way of policy."
Written by kpf on 12/29/2008
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I'm doing just fine thank you. Tolerance is accepting there are dissenting opinions to one's own. The "science is not settled", even though Joseph Goebbels....uh... I mean Al Gore ... has "declared" it to be so. As I mentioned before, even if the problem is real that does not mean that many of the proposed "solutions" are anything but scams. In fact there are enviromnmental groups who agree with me. Use your brain, do not blindly follow the pronouncements of any of our politicians. Don't be an unthinking "dittohead" for Al Gore or Rush Limbaugh. Two interesting links below, many more abvailable on the net. Google "carbon credit scam", find articles on this scam from such sources as "marxist.com" (not exactly a right wing ditto-head orginazation, or so one would think) who also warn of the carbon credit scam. http://www.climos.com/news/articles/howclean.htm_______________http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84421
Written by kpf on 12/29/2008
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Dr. Samuels, Your article is very well written and biblically sound. Your rebuttal is theologically sound. You did a good job. But one would only know this to be accurate if and only if they have studied the Bible and had begun to immerse themselves in theological research. I don't have clue where the Nero and Caligula reference came from in reference to what was 'really' being alluded to regarding homosexuality. I do agree that too many of the religious right place more emphasis on one sin to the exclusion of many others. Part of the reason may be that the use of the word 'abomination' is so forceful that it's meaning cannot be misconstrued, minimized and/or denied...again...good job.
Written by Elaine on 12/28/2008
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kpf says, "if you don't agree with me you must be... a 'dittohead' " ...LOL! Nah, KP, if you don't believe in global warming- then, you must be a ditto-head. (it's called "an inconvenient truth"-- just for you)... How you doooin', been missin' ya:)
Written by KjunKringle on 12/28/2008
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In addition to this article's quote "they tolerate only those who agree with them and try to silence their critics" we also have the phenomenon of "if you don't agree with me you must be”: 1) unthinking; 2) stupid; 3) a "dittohead" 4) all of the above. One thing people of all religious beliefs, political beliefs, skin color, "whatever the differences are" share is the feeling of superiority over those who have come to a different conclusions then they have themselves. Not a very good trait to have - let alone it being so common amongst us. Yet another reason I do not trust government, it isn't the ideals or principles of any particular system of governance, it is the fact that the creatures that are entrusted to carry out this "grand design" are so very flawed.
Written by kpf, intolerant of intolerance..uh...wait a minute on 12/27/2008
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Babble on morons, by all means please do babble on……………………
Written by   on 12/27/2008
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Sid, I am a Christian who happens to be gay--not the other way around. I mention this only for perspective--not because of anything you've said. I do find it interesting that you declare that the U.S gov't/Constitution (etc.) are founded upon "Christian" principles--that is inaccurate. We do "pledge allegiance" to this country as one nation under "God"; however, there are other religions such as Judaism that believe in God, but NOT Christianity. That's why it is so important to "think it through" before jumping to pedantic conclusions. The same was true of you trying to include horses (non-humans/non-citizens) in the argument for gay marriage--between two consenting adults, who are both HUMAN & CITIZENS. I think you are replete w/incertitude on the topic of homosexuality & gay marriage. Thus, you try to forge false connections/relations w/completely dissimilar beings (ie., different species), ideas, & information. Also, you go on & on about the destruction of "family" that gay marriage would bring???? I do believe that many heterosexuals have done that ALL ON THEIR OWN. Homosexuals are not responsible for the OVER 50% divorce rate, incest, sexual abuse of children, infidelity, and so on, & so on. To project that these ills are anything but heterosexual, is false, interpersonally dishonest, & absolutely hubris. You, & many others who are either uneducated, or blind w/hate, & other forms of fear are always looking for someone else to blame for your own irresponsibility, & unChristian, deplorable behavior. When you look to yourself to make change in the world, you stand a much better chance than when you look to change others'--what they're doing, & what they're thinking. Let it begin w/ME--NOT SOMEONE ELSE...Merry Christmas.
Written by Mike M. on 12/26/2008
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Sid, the plight of blacks in America is not a failure to follow Christian teaching. Rather it is the government - in an unintentional way - promoting illegitimacy. Promoting this by "being the Daddy (breadwinner)" for single women and their illegitimate children. Significantly, illegitimacy has risen sine LBJ's great society reforms, among sfrom 5 to 20 percent, among blacks from 20 to 70 percent. More illegitimate children means more mothers on AFDC, more people in public housing, more people dependent on government. "More people dependent on government"? Maybe it's not an unintended consequence; maybe it is a deliberate plan to gain and maintain power by having an ever growing populace dependant on government? Naw, that couldn’t be... surely those hungry for power wouldn't stoop that low....of course not, silly me. Be extra special nice to those who love you today.... Santa's watchin'.
Written by kpf on 12/25/2008
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Ugh - for starters, the New Testament is not the Constitution of the United States. Second, Thomas Jefferson was a deist, not a pagan. I'm not the one spinning things - you are creating straw men - but enough of my yackin' - Merry Christmas to you too! TW
Written by Tee Dub on 12/24/2008
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So I'm wrong. I guess I'm wrong because I disagree with you. So marriage is an evolving partnership. First your wife became your property, then whites and blacks couldn't marry, so of course the logical progression is gay marriage? And then what? The New Testament spells it out and it's very clear. What you're saying is all based on what certain groups did or forbid. And I guess you're right, we must be a pagan country because Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian? I love the way you spin things. Man if those racist rednecks who they were agreeing with, my God their heads would explode. Merry Christmas TW and Merry Christmas to all my fellow Christian conservatives.
Written by Sid on 12/24/2008
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Sid, marriage has been re-defined again and again and again. After all, polygamy used to be acceptable in Western society, and up until the 19th century, a woman became the property of her husband upon marriage. I'm sure conservatives at the time argued that it had been that way seemingly forever, that it had been ordained by God, etc., etc., and that shouldn't be changed - but change it did. And my point about your nostalgia for the 1950s stands - in the 1950s and into the 1960s, white people and black people couldn't marry in many states - and, ironically enough, it was argued by some that the Bible spoke interracial marriage. So guess what, progressives redefined marriage to allow for interracial unions, much to the chagrin of conservatives. Marriage as an institution is hardly static - it is constantly evolving - and gay marriage is simply the next logical step. You cannot name a single non-religious argument against it, period. There is none! And Sid, you're free to think whatever you want to think - but I'm just as free to call it ironic, idiotic, puzzling, small-minded, whatever - that's free speech, Bud. And you're equally free to call me a racist, but you might want to save that appellation for some of the racist rednecks who post here and agree with you on oh so many issues (save one). As a final point, our third president Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, and he's the author of the Declaration of Independence - so enough of the "this country was founded on Christian principals (sic)" talk. It's simply not true. Sometimes you're really funny, Sid - I love your sense of humor - but you're being pig-headed about this, and you're wrong. TW
Written by Tee Dub on 12/24/2008
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Yes but it's my right! And no I'm not a hypocrite, apparently TW doesn't think a black man can think or talk in a certain way, especially in a conservative manner. Oh, and every state constitution has references to God for instance the Louisiana 1921, Preamble. "We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy .." Go to Washington DC and God is everywhere.
Written by Sid on 12/24/2008
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Sid writes, "It's a liberal ploy to call names when someone disagrees with them." And, in his next breath Sid says, " And yes you racist pig, I hate watching..."....LOL!.. Yo, Sid- can you spell hypocrite?
Written by KjunKringle on 12/24/2008
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"Like it or not this country was founded on Christian principals." THIS is a fundamental mis-characterization of American history. On the contrary, the United States was founded on secularism. Don't believe me? Go and find a copy of the Tripoli Treaty, drafted in 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams in 1797, which begins: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."
Written by Trey on 12/24/2008
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Comrade TW, when the family is compromised you have serious problems like we have in the black community today. When you redefine marriage you attack the family. When you destroy the family you destroy hope. Don't try to turn Gay Marriage into the next Civil Rights issue. And yes, I guess it's a religious issue. But how am I imposing my beliefs on you, marriage has been defined as a man & woman for freaking ever? You do realize that Christianity is the foundation this country was founded upon? Why should it change now? You want to impose your beliefs on me? If you and your life partner want to get married, go find a church and a preacher that will do it, I don't care. But you want to redefine marriage to accommodate a small percentage of the population so that they can either get some benefits, or so you feel like their civil rights are not being violated anymore, or what? Go get the power of attorney, go play like you're married I don't care. Why get married just live together, alot of straight people do it. And yes you racist pig, I hate watching young men walk around with their pants at half-ass, looking to get high, and making babies. Because they don't have a clue and are not held accountable for their actions. But hey, it's their right to do want they want. And why can't the Man-Boy Love Assoc. exercise their rights and get married? And don't give me that crap about how ridiculous that sounds.
Written by Sid on 12/24/2008
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I must say Dr. Samuels your comment "they tolerate only those who agree with them and try to silence their critics" could apply to many individuals of whatever belief. "Tolerance" is much like free speech; just as no one needs protection from speech that offends no one, likewise "tolerance" means accepting that different people will be (obvious, one would think) "different" from oneself. Intolerance of differences has been used to justify many evils in humanity's history. I am hoping Mr. Obama's presidency will be "one giant leap" in this country becoming more accepting of our differences.
Written by kpf on 12/24/2008
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So at its core you admit that your argument is a religious argument. You are entitled to your religious beliefs, but you CANNOT impose them on others, and that is what you are doing here. Gay people getting married has ZERO impact on your life or marriage, period. It has ZERO effect on you, and (here's a news flash) - it's not going to involve any of that indiscriminate "baby making" you mention in your post. However, not being able to marry the person of one's choosing has a MAJOR impact on the lives of those who are told that they do not have that right. Why would you deny someone that right, just because you perceive that they shouldn't have it from your own personal religious perspective? What business is it of YOURS what they do? And as an aside, let me just state that a black guy pining for the way things were in the 1950s is a bit bizarre, to say the least. TW
Written by Tee Dub on 12/24/2008
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Like it or not this country was founded on Christian principals. The family structure is the strength of society. And the marriage between a man and a woman is the foundation of a family. When we re-invent the family and change it to what ever we feel like it should be we start chipping away at society. Back in the 50's and before, black families(and white) were very strong, Dad and Mom worked very hard to keep the family together and try to make a better life for their kids. Today our young men have a right to express themselves by giving in to that mating urge. It's okay for them to go have unprotected sex and make babies and walk away without any responsibility because the government will take care of them. The government is the new Daddy. We have done this to ourselves by redefining marriage among other things. I love gay people, I know a person who died from Aid's related illnesses, I do not have a problem with companies offering same sex couples health insurance, etc. But don't legislate me and tell me that I have to do the same. What any individual does in their personal life is none of my business. Gay rights is not the next civil rights movement, don't try and make it that because if we do then we open the door for every other group that feels as though their rights are being stamped upon. Marriage in my opinion and in the eyes of God is between a man and a woman and it's been that way for 5,000 +/- years. Don't redefine marriage and don't try to change the Bible. And just because I disagree does not mean that I hate. It's a liberal ploy to call names when someone disagrees with them.
Written by Sid on 12/24/2008
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It's weak, Sid, because horses are NOT CITIZENS--HELLO!!!!!
Written by Mike M. on 12/23/2008
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"persecuting"
Written by Gawd dang it on 12/23/2008
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Separation of church and state.... so..... why not polygamy? Why not? Really. A lesbian friend of mine laughed that idea off as absurd. Why? Just because you are not comfortable with it? That's not a good reason, IMHO. Gay marriage is fine, I fail to see what the big deal is. As far as the bible goes, uh... wasn't that cobbled together many, many years after anyone who was an eyewitness to the lifetime of Jesus Christ was long dead and gone. Also... didn't the Roman empire - after they were tired of persuting Christians - decide THEY were the center of Christianity and they were responsible for putting together the books we now know as the bible? Ah well... have a merry Christmas.
Written by kpf on 12/23/2008
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For starters, you equate a relationship between two consenting human adults with a "relationship" between an adult and an animal that cannot consent to said "relationship." That is a horrible, dehumanizing thing to do, period. Second, you do not recognize that there are rights in our society that are only bestowed via marriage (see Bob's second post below), and that to deny an entire class of people those rights is tantamount to apartheid (see boarderthom's post). Bottom line: your discomfort with gay people should not be written into law so as to deny anyone his or her rights, period. If churches wish to deny people the right to marry in their church, that's their prerogative. The state has no such right (see Bob's first post). I could go on, but those are the most salient points. TW
Written by Tee Dub on 12/23/2008
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Why?
Written by Sid on 12/23/2008
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Weak.
Written by Tee Dub on 12/23/2008
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This is why, "Apartheid: A system of laws applied to one category of citizens in order to isolate them and keep them from having privileges and opportunities given to all others. Stop gay apartheid."
Written by Sid on 12/23/2008
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Sid, you admit that you shouldn't have put it in, so you apologize, and then, you turn around and say it AGAIN?!?!?!? What is wrong with you? One would think that an African-American would be more sensitive to these kind of issues! You're unbelievable sometimes. And kjunlady - Je te souhaite un joyeux Chrismise, chère! TW
Written by Tee Dub on 12/23/2008
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Do you people not understand the concept of separation of church and state? By allowing the constitutional rights of a segment of the population to come to a vote, you are opening up the door for all types of abuses, not to mention leaving the democratic process in shreds.
Written by Trey on 12/23/2008
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Okay then borderthom, let's bring the horse marriage back into play. There is a group of people out there that may want this so should we open this issue up to all? They have rights and privileges as well.
Written by Sid on 12/23/2008
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MM, I shouldn't have put the horse marriage in the post, I apologize. The Gay Rights Movement is trying to become the next civil rights movement and that is a travesty in my personal opinion. Civil unions are one thing but to mandate that marriage is anything other than the union between a man and a woman is another. The Bible lays it out for all of us to read. If we choose to interpret it to our own liking, then we will be held accountable for it later.
Written by Sid on 12/23/2008
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Apartheid: A system of laws applied to one category of citizens in order to isolate them and keep them from having privileges and opportunities given to all others. Stop gay apartheid.
Written by boarderthom on 12/23/2008
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Sid, I stopped reading your blog at the ridiculous inclusion of a "horse". You lose ALL credibility when you introduce bestiality into a discussion of homosexuality. This tells me that you have no competency, or understanding whatsoever of that which you speak. I completely agree w/Bob's assessment/explanation of the rationale for not allowing the belief system of one or more groups of people, to negate the GUARANTEED HUMAN RIGHTS, AFFORDED IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION TO ALL HUMAN BEINGS. By the way, I am a Christian. It has been Christ that has gotten me through the ignorance, & other forms of hatred others have tried to exercise upon me. Through other of God's children, He taught me that I am no one's victim, unless I choose to be--and I do not choose to be the victim of others' ignorance/fear/hate. I choose to be a person, a child of God who does not have to "settle" for anything. I choose to be a full participant in my own life, free of the yoke of the naysayers to my freedom & happiness.
Written by Mike M. on 12/22/2008
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Interesting arguments. Both the Old and New Testaments must be studied when discussing issues like this, so read in depth when trying to make a statement that the Bible is explicit when it condones slavery. The Gay Marriage moevment is trying to become the next civil rights issue of our ages, hopefully this won't happen because it will diminish the journey that many people took and suffered through to get to where we are today. Homosexuality is an abomination per the Bible(God). But that is between the person and his Maker. Christians are taught to love the person but hate the sin. Marriage should be between a woman and a man, not between two members of the same sex nor between a horse and a human. This is a tough subject especially when you have close relatives that are gay and when you know someone that has died because of Aids related problems. Dr. Samuels is right with his response to the original article.
Written by Sid on 12/22/2008
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No name: We do not live in a "majority rules" country. We do not live in a Democracy, we live in a Republic with a system of checks and balances that prevents the majority from using its will to trample over rights of the minority. Just because the majority WANTS something to be true does not mean that it should be true.
Written by Daniel Z on 12/22/2008
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Merry Christmas, TeeDub (Dr.TW)!!!... and, Dear Bob, "Written-By" is the anti-Christ.
Written by KjunKringle on 12/22/2008
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So much for there being 'thousands' of viewers "everyday" at the Bayou Buzz.. Another myth dissipated..... Oh well, I suppose the economy is sort of bad for a lot of people out there... Hey, is Bobby still flying all over hells half acres first class at the tax payers dime to slum around with his political cronies????
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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So much for there being 'thousands' of viewers "everyday" at the Bayou Buzz.. Another myth dissipated.....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Well, I am glad he did Daniel Z... And if you lived in California, you could have had the opportunity to vote on Prop 8 too....... But that is water under the bridge, the people of California voted... And I am sure there were more than a couple of Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Atheists, Pedophiles, Murderers, Rapiers, Car Thieves, Bankers, Jewelers, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Norwegians, Homo SexualS, Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klansmen, Politicians, Morticians, Beauticians, Newspaper Reporters, Welfare recipients, etc., etc., etc. that did as well.... And the final result? Well........................ There you have it.... THE MAJORITY SPOKE, AND THEN THEY ACTED!!!
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Imagine running into a black person (or if you are black running into a white person) and finding out you actually like that person?! Imagine running into a flaming gay person { or one of those ‘ho-humm -eeeeeyew ‘ “straight person” and finding out you actually like that person?! Imagine running into a horribly deformed or crippled person and finding out that you actually like that person? Not because you were told you had to, not because some law mandated it, but because you actually were afforded the opportunity to make that acquaintance? And you didn’t make that acquaintance because it was bouncing around wanting special attention, but you met that person because there it appeared, right on your doorstep, or standing in line with you somewhere…. Issues, issues, issues, issues…. That’s all folks are interested in…… People that advocate the this, the that, and the everything else don’t really care, what they really care about is making an issue…. And when the novelty of it wears off, they look for some other example to pound on as they scream “Equality for all!!!” But when it comes time for them to shell the money out of their pockets, or pick the load up and carry it on their shoulders, guess what? It is a no show…….. Just a bunch of people sitting around mouthing off about this that and the other thing with no action involved…… Merry Christmas....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Bob's first post pretty much nails everything I had to say.
Written by Daniel Z on 12/22/2008
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But what I really think we need to do is a tax incentive program where we can import orangutans and chimpanzees and some sea monkeys, and they can be married to citizens of the United States.... and they can procreate, and we can have tax based programs to make sure they survive and thrive and get equal Oprah time etc., etc., etc… Because we are ALL members of the animal kingdom…… I mean after all, let’s become completely impartial and unbiased… I want everything and everybody to be treated EQUALLY….. And if someone is born without an arm or a leg, or a hand or an eye, then we should have special police that will go out and cut an arm, or a leg, or a hand, or an eye from everyone that is not afflicted….. That way we are ALL equal… And if someone wants to rape squirrels, and molest children, then everyone should rape squirrels and molest children so that there is no display of hate and everyone feels all tingly and warm and special………………. All of those millions of dollars spent on special Olympics and the sad thing of it is, after the poor kid passes the finish line, the kid is still retarded…. Wut’s that all about?
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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What does Barrack Obama's mother and father have to do with anything? His father was a Kenyan, and not subject to Jim Crow laws.... His mother married him and she was a U.S. citizen..., I suppose the Jim Crow laws, whatever those completley encompassed {as if I care}, were repealled in 1964... Barrack was born in 1961... So what are you saying? I mean there is already so much that is wrong with the story, but......... hey, who am I to argue with change? That is until I find out something is shortchanging me???
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Consider that Barack's mother and father could not have been legally married under the not-that-distant Jim Crow laws that precluded interracial marriage. The majority should never be allowed to impose restrictions on equal civil rights protection of any group of people. Dr Samuels, you and other Prop 8 proponents will one day be accurately viewed in history in the same light as the segregationists of the 60s.
Written by Jon on 12/22/2008
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I agree with you mno...... If they want to marry, I would suggest to them to take a gay cruise....... Get married, live it up!!! About all that marriage equates out to these days anyways is some broad trolling for bucks and a good time while looking for an easy way to commit fraud or extortion anyways.... What a shame....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Well Bobbo, I guess he figured that he may as well get to the root of the problem by doing so in Africa..... That's where it all began isn't it? In fact, interestingly enough, the first case of AIDS in the United States occured in the late 50's..... A person had quickly succumed to an unknown reason for death in New York City, and they kept the body on ice.... When aids was identified, finally, in the 80's, they pulled his body out of the freezer, and lo and behold!!! You see, most people that caught a deadly disease in Africa prior to the Jet age, generally died before they got out of the jungle.... But this guy made it clear to New York city before dropping dead...... And as far as hetrosexual/homosexual, wutever..... Did you know that a certain group of Indians in the tropical rain forests in South America carry HIV? Always have, and probably always will... It is passed on in their hereditary.... Since before the time of the Spanish Explorers... For some reason they are immune to it though... And Aids is supposed to have orginated in Africa... Put those little facts in your peace pipe and smoke on 'em Bobbo.....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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I firmly believe that gay/lesbian couples have every right to be every bit as miserable as at least half of all heterosexual married couples...after all, over half of heterosexual marriages now end in divorce...and that's with the evangelicals holding sway in DC for the past 8 years....i guess religious/political hypocrites just can't stand not being able to control every aspect of peoples' lives...how analretentive. Perhaps the evangelicals should focus on cleaning up their own stables (see Vitter, Criag, ministers, etc caught in adulterous multisexual affairs)before telling others how to live as f****d-up and repressed lives as their own. If person A wants to marry person B, it's nobody's friggin business but their own. Go find someone else to hate and fear, maybe looking into a mirror will do the trick.
Written by mno on 12/22/2008
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Oh correction, it was rick warren that donated all that money to aids research, not warren jeff or warren jeffs, boy oh boy, all these warrens out there seem to generate a bunch of unwarrented publicity now don't they?
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Whoever you are, anonymous poster who can't even be bothered to create a pseudonym for your reponses, you're clearly an idiot to whom there's no point responding any further, except to say that the pastor referred to is Rick Warren, not Warren Jeffs. And although he may contribute to AIDS research, he does so in Africa, where AIDS is an overwhelmingly heterosexual problem. Anyone who makes the types of comments he does regarding gays is not gay friendly.
Written by Bob on 12/22/2008
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And T-duhb, you sly devil you, I had no idea you were such a strong advocate of brothers marrying their sisters, or Fathers marrying their daughters!!!! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! It falls within the same train of thought as the examples you so eloquently laid out... Merry X-mas...... and for those that aren't offended! Well... MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Oh, and as a parting shot to you Bob, those things you refer to as 'rights' are not rights at all.... Some people have recourse to some of those things, but they do not have the right to them.... The only thing people really have the right to, is the right to roll over and die when their time comes..... Everything between the time they were born, and the time in the end is merely an experience that hopefully they are able to make the best of....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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And at the same time, it would reduce the 'gay concern' in California, and then they could shift their focus towards illeagel immigration, and after that is taken care of, then they could focus on creating more jobs..... It just gets better, and better all the time!!!!
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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But you know, back to the economic thing.... Maybe Louisiana should do some tax based incentive programs geared at luring Gay people to New Orleans so they can get gay marriages on the high seas? And hopefully lot's of them would relocate here and this could become the gay Mecca of the world.. Surely all those heartbroken gaysters in California need a place to mend their hearts? We could charge them all sorts of fees for licenses and applications.. Think about it!!! It would be great!!! And they would bring investment dollars, and of course they probably wouldn't reproduce which would mean there would be less of a need for schools and the taxdollars that are spent on them... It's a win-win solution!!!! I would like to take this chance to extend an invitation for every gay person all around the world to come to New Orleans to settle!!!! What a GREAT MONEY GENERATING OPPORTUNITY!!!!
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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But the crux of this story is this; The folks in California said "To hell with this ignorance, let's start turning things back around for decent folks" and they reversed on Prop 8.... Talk about an ethics reform law!!! And one more abusive doctrine that would have been yet another loophole that depraived people use to bilk the hardworking taxpayers out of their dollars has been quashed..... Because that is all this subject is.... Doctrine, or Dogma......
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Yeah T-Dub, Thirty years from now.... Ha!-ha-ha-ha1-ha!and in 10 generations from then people will be looking back on people that looked in disgust, contempt, or amusment at men that marry sheep in the same fashion........ NOT... You geniuses in life are simply amazing......
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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In other words Bob, you are talking about turning the state of matrimony into a state of material money provided by the taxpayers and society at large for someone who has a fetish coupled with a deep attraction towards members of the same sex... Next thing you know you will be wanting marriages between men and sheep sanctioned under the same type of auspicies...
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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This poorly-reasoned article is far from your best work, Dr. Samuels. EVERYONE has a buffet-style interpretation of Scripture - no one is immune to this - you do it yourself when you dismiss the Biblical references to slavery as not indicating that slavery was a "divinely approved institution." Clearly slavery was sanctioned in the Bible - a fact that helped prolong quite a thorny problem for African-Americans in this country, to say the least. Do you eat crawfish or oysters, Dr. Samuels? Do you work on Saturdays? Do you wear wool and linen garments at the same time? All of these are "abominations" in the sight of the Lord, according to the Good Book, but the smart money is on you ignoring all of these Biblical precepts. It astounds me that people will go on record as being against gay marriage. Thirty years from now that will be looked upon as being just as backward and mean-spirited as someone's having been in support of "Jim Crow" laws in the 1960s is seen today. I won't say more, except to say that Bob down below hits the nail on the head - THAT was a great post! Merry Christmas to my Christian friends, and Happy Holidays to everyone! Y'all take care! TW
Written by Tee Dub on 12/22/2008
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Or are you shooting for the headlines; "Fifty-three people swindled! Fifty-three people swindled!"?
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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And the rest of your reasonings can be taken care of by the uhemmmmm, 'spouses' loading up on life insurance policies, accidental death policies, etc, etc, etc...
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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And upwards of three quarters of your complaints would be covered by incorporation, and as far as the veteran's stuff goes, well when they sign the paper that contains the 'We won't ask if you don't tell' clause, that pretty much makes that subject moot right off the bat....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Yeah, but you forgot the most important one there Bob, protection under freedom of choice laws!!!!! Without that, every time one of them went to take a dump they could by accused of perfoming an unauthorized abortion!!! So, I guess that would make them a qualified doctor and licensed to practice surgery huh?
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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And I am assuming the pastor you are referring to is Warren Jeffs? Well, got some news for you sunshine... He is not 'anti-gay'.... In fact, his church is reported to have contributed upwards of a million dollars or so towards aids research.... Do us a favor Doc, leave the goody-goody-controversial-do-good-goody-good-good media spin stories on the side of the road where they belong. Merry X-mas!!!
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Well, let's start with * Right to ex- or late spouse's benefits, including: o Social Security pension o veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing o survivor benefits for federal employees o survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers o additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease o $100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty o continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits o renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse o continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances o payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death o making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts * Right to benefits while married: o employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges o per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating o Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances) o sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits * Larger benefits under some programs if married, including: o veteran's disability o Supplemental Security Income o disability payments for federal employees o medicaid o property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans o income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates * Joint and family-related rights: o joint filing of bankruptcy permitted o joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records o family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison o next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims o custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce o domestic violence intervention o access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods * Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs * Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses. * Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens * Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime * Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse * Court notice of probate proceedings * Existing homestead lease continuation of rights * Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption * Funeral and bereavement leave * Joint adoption and foster care * Joint tax filing * Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society * Legal status with stepchildren * Making spousal medical decisions * Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver * Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation * Right of survivorship of custodial trust * Automatic ight to change surname upon marriage * Right to enter into prenuptial agreement * Automatic right to inheritance of property * Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege) * Spousal income and assets are counted in determining need in many forms of government assistance, including: o veteran's medical and home care benefits o housing assistance o happy birthday housing loans for veterans o child's education loans o educational loan repayment schedule o agricultural price supports and loans o eligibility for federal matching campaign funds * Marriage bonuses In addition, community-property states frequently have forms of ownership that allow a full basis step-up on one's own share of community property on the death of a spouse (in addition to the normal step-up on spouse's assets). Research finds the difference in Social Security income for same-sex couples compared to opposite-sex married couples is US$5,588 per year. After the 2006 death of former Massachusetts Congressman Gerry Studds (D), the first openly gay member of Congress, his legal spouse Dean Hara was denied the estimated $114,337 annual pension to which Hara would have been eligible if their Massachusetts marriage was recognized on the federal level. * potential loss of couple's home from medical expenses of one partner caring for another gravely ill one * costs of supporting two households, travel, or emigration out of the U.S. for an American citizen unable to legally marry a non-US citizen * higher cost of purchasing private insurance for partner and children if company is not one of 18% that offer domestic partner benefits * higher taxes: unlike a company's contribution to an employee's spouse's health insurance, domestic partner benefits are taxed as additional compensation * legal costs associated with obtaining domestic partner documents to gain some of the power of attorney, health care decision-making, and inheritance rights granted through legal marriage * higher health costs associated with lack of insurance and preventative care: 20% of same-sex couples have a member who is uninsured compared to 10% of married opposite-sex couples * current tax law allows a spouse to inherit an unlimited amount from the deceased without incurring an estate tax but an unmarried partner would have to pay the estate tax on the inheritance from her/his partner * same-sex couples are not eligible to file jointly or separately as a married couple and thus cannot take the advantages of lower tax rates when the individual income of the partners differs significantly
Written by Bob on 12/22/2008
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Oh, wait, I almost forgot Doc, I get the punchline now........ Fifty-two people swindled! Fifty-two people swindled!!!!
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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I have an English Bulldog, and it wants to marry a French Poodle, what about its rights? They should be protected as well, and I am angry the media doesn't spend time trying to mesmerize us with the validity of that kind of a stupid arraingment...
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Oh, and you don't have to hire a lawyer to grant someone power of attorney....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Because when you say expensive, expensive in relationship to what? Wedding cakes, photographers, honeymoons, bridal showers, etc., etc., etc. Huhhhhh????? What rights are you talking about that can't be obtained through incoporation, power of attorney, executor of an estate, etc., etc., etc.....?????? Glad I'm not confused...
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Oh, you mean rights like alimoney, or the right to file restraining orders, or the right to?????
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Part of what gay people have their "panties in a twist" about, anonymous, is that what you suggest (hiring a lawyer to get power of attorney and so on) is an expensive, imprecise, difficult, and ultimately unequal process to gain only a small portion of the rights automatically and freely bestowed with marriage.
Written by Bob on 12/22/2008
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Oh, and the slave thing? well Bob, it's o.k..... In fact, we are all slaves, only under a newer and improved system.... Merry X-mas, and thankyou for this non thought provoking and insipid prattle entitled: The Bible And Gay Marriage: Reply To Lisa Miller.....
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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Oh gee, my post dissapeard, Soooo.... How about letting gay people get a gay marriage out at sea by a gay marriage captain on a gay boat cruise? What an economic engine that would be!!!! Louisiana could specialize on it!!! And when the folks come back from their gay cruise to get a gay marriage out on the gay high seas, they can incorporate/power of attorney............. What are the basic rights they have their panties up in a twist about? Wuts all the fuss? Gay, gay, gay, gay..................
Written by   on 12/22/2008
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"For example, the fact that polygamy and slavery are found in the Old Testament does not mean that these are divinely approved institutions. Rather, they reflect the cultural and social practices that existed when the Bible was written." Wow I find this statement very funny. The fact is homosexuality is found in the bible to be a wrong thing. But going with that logic slavery IS approved in the bible (seen below). There is no "interpretation" the bible clearly states that slavery is ok. So the question becomes are we going to follow ALL of the bible or not? Also are we going to pick and choose what to follow? Is all of the word of god or not? Do people who are bigots hide behind the bible to justify their hatred of someone different? The answer to the last question is yes. Its funny how fast some groups who now have equal rights forget what its like to be on the other side and instead are hateful to people who are different then them just as they were hated for being different. When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. Exodus 21:7-11 NLT When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21 NAB Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT
Written by Rob Smithe on 12/22/2008
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You are fundamentally confused about the difference between political and religious views and participation, and about the difference between religious and civil marriages. Gays and lesbians accuse religious fundamentalists of bigotry when they attempt to force their religious views on the general population. You see, you are free to interpret your chosen religious texts in any way you see fit, and to try to live your life according to those interpretations; nobody would argue with that. But what you are not free to do is to try to force your interpretations of your chosen religious text on anybody else. The church (by which I mean any religious organization) has every right to decide who is and is not eligible to receive marriage sacraments within its particular tradition; what it cannot do is decide who is and is not eligible to form a marriage contract with the State. "Religious marriage" amounts to a non-legally binding ceremony conducted by a representative of a given religion; civil marriage is a totally different matter. Any person married in a religious ceremony must do so according to the State's rules if they wish that marriage to be legally recognized and binding. That means that, legally, certain words must be spoken, certain permissions (like a marriage license) must be acquired, and certain papers must be signed and submitted to the state if the marriage is to be considered legally binding. In effect, a person getting married in a religious ceremony is having both a religious and a civil ceremony: the religious portion satisfies that person's religious views/needs/requirements, while the civil portion means that the marriage is legal according to the State. What Proposition 8 did was try to force the religious views of a segment of the American population onto every resident of California. Because certain Christian sects have interpreted the Bible as condemning homosexuality, those people believe that same-sex marriage is sinful/forbidden/anathema/inappropriate or whatever. It should be easy to see why this is so wrong. Imagine, for example, that a major Muslim organization had funded a proposition to force Sharia law on Californian courts. Or that a Jewish organization had funded a proposition to outlaw the consumption of pork in California. Or that a Buddhist organization had funded a proposition to outlaw the killing of any animal for food in California. Most fair-minded and reasonable people can see that such developments would be wrong, and would understand why: because in America, as in every modern democratic society, it is wrong to force your religious views on non-adherents to your brand of belief. Proposition 8 is no different. You are free to believe, because of your religion, that homosexuality is wrong; you are not free to limit anyone else's constitutional rights based on that view.
Written by Bob on 12/22/2008
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